Mindful Grooming Balance with Dave Campanella

Joe Zuccarello: We’re going to be answering questions we get all the time. And not surprisingly, that is, the questions usually start with the words, hey, Joe. So let’s go ahead and get started with this week’s episode. I am thrilled to be talking with one of my favorite people in the pet industry, a guy that I’ve got mad respect for. His name is Dave Campanella. He is with Best Shot Grooming Products and has been for quite some time and been in the pet industry for a while. I’ll let him let you know in just a moment kind of what he’s up to. Dave has been an industry influencer for some time. He’s always speaking at trade shows and writing articles and just doing some really cool stuff.

Joe Zuccarello: If you’ve ever met Dave, one thing you’ll identify right away is this dude is passionate about what he does. And that’s one of the reasons why he was an absolute must to get onto the Hey Joe podcast. Dave, I appreciate you joining us today. We are excited to hear what is going on in your world and also in the world at Best Shot. One thing I’m going to ask the listeners to do is stick around to the end of this podcast because Dave is going to give you a really cool free offer to take advantage of. So I’m sure you’re going to want to stick around because Dave usually brings great education and great products to the table. So very excited about that, and you can always access information about these products or these offers as well and any of our podcast episodes by going to paragonpetschool.com, and you can download the podcast. Definitely, if you’ve not hit subscribe yet, please do.

Joe Zuccarello: By hitting subscribe, you will be served up the Hey Joe podcast as often and as frequent as they are produced. And that will be very frequently. So hopefully, you pick up information in these types of episodes that helps you do your job better and more wiser and with even greater quality. So Dave and I today are going to be talking about a really cool topic, called the mindful groomer. And Dave’s going to introduce you to what does the word mindful mean, and what is this word that he throws out quite a bit is achieving balance through the entire grooming process.

Joe Zuccarello: So hey, Dave, why don’t you tell us a little bit more about yourself? Some of the listeners may know you. Some of the listeners may not, but it’s a great opportunity for you to tell us what’s going on in Dave’s world.

Dave Campanella: Absolutely. Well, it’s great to be back. It’s been a while. Well, I got into this business 28 years ago when I married my wife, Tracy, who happens to be a professional groomer. And she’s the founder of Best Shot Pet Products. And together, Tracy and I co-owned and operated a self-serve and full-serve grooming business. And together, we’ve learned a lot over the years and evolved with the industry over the last three decades. And one thing led to another, and 15 years ago, I started working with Best Shot Pet Products, the new owners, and Mike Gallagher and I have done a lot of great things as far as trying to redefine our company and focus on what it is we do and who our audience is and build a brand, but more importantly, me being a marketing geek, a marketing nerd, it was always very important to make claims that one can substantiate with fact and scientific fact.

Dave Campanella: And we’ve worked very hard to build what we feel is a pre-eminent brand with a lot of neat things. But it’s also what I’ve learned and Tracy and I, what’s near and dear to our heart over the last 30 years is education, which is why we’ve done a lot of seminars, not Best Shot seminars, but good curriculum that focuses on identifying the holes in our industry, where we see certain subject matter lacking. And we try to fill in those holes with the much needed curriculum and concepts that groomers both baby groomers and new groomers in the industry to folks that have bene at this for decades, thank you to give them information that’s going to benefit them that they can basically turnkey apply it to what they’re doing and get off running with the concepts that are going to better things for them.

Joe Zuccarello: That’s great. I absolutely could not have said it any better myself. What’s really great about what you’re doing is you are asking pet professionals to look at things differently. You’re asking them to possibly … let’s try and maybe take off the blinders, so to speak, and look at fact-based resources. This main topic for the Hey Joe podcast stems from many, many questions that I get asked, and I’m sure Dave, you have as well, which is how do I work harder and not smarter? This is a demanding job. And how do I approach my job, my career, in the best, healthiest, most productive way? And sometimes, and maybe you’re the listener out there, who it almost seems like I’m speaking directly to. Maybe sometimes it seems like we just forget to take a step back and look at ourselves, what we’re doing, the processes in our grooming business. So if that’s you, that’s one of the things, that’s probably one of the healthiest things to do is take a moment, breathe, and maybe have an opportunity to look from the outside in at what you’re doing.

Joe Zuccarello: I think you’ll be surprised sometimes at what you’ll discover. And by Dave coming onto this show today, to this episode today, I think he’s going to challenge you, take your blinders off and to focus on fact-based resources. And we’re going to make it easy for you. That’s what we do here at Hey, Joe. We bring the information to you so that you don’t have to go searching for it. So it can’t get any easier.

Joe Zuccarello: So sit back, enjoy this week’s episode and what Dave has to offer you. So Dave, you sent a quote to me that really just hit home. And whether it’s been my family or people I’ve had the pleasure of working with in the past and just people that have surrounded me with their experience, one of the things that I feel that I’ve always boasted or preached, which is don’t write stories in your head. Some people say don’t assume or don’t make assumptions and such. But how many times a day, and I catch myself doing this all the time. And that’s one of that reasons why I recognize that this is something other people can get caught up in is because writing stories in your head, so dealing with assumptions or non-fact-based information.

Joe Zuccarello: And Dave, you sent me a quote by a doctor, Dr. Steven McKenzie. And the quote was, “Focusing one’s attention on what is rather than being distracted by what isn’t.” I thought it was great. I hope this guy has this on his … is he still alive? I don’t know. But if he is, great. If he doesn’t, he should have it on his tombstone. That is just such a life lesson, right?

Dave Campanella: Well, Steven McKenzie happens to be one of the leading experts on mindful practice and what it is, and how does that pertain to grooming? Every listener is probably like oh my god, where are we going with this? But really, this is something pretty basic and simple. And think about it this way. We can all attest to living in a fast-paced world, and there’s so much clutter and distraction. And groomers have been able to reach out to each other through the innovation and technology of the internet and smartphones, which is great.

Dave Campanella: But unfortunately with all of that comes a lot of clutter, a lot of distraction, a lot of BS, a lot of opinions. So often someone will go online and say how do you deal with … they don’t ask Joe, they don’t ask Dave. They just go out to the internet and say, hey, how do I deal with this? And they get 20 different answers. And it just makes things convoluted and difficult, especially if you’re working through something in the grooming process that you’re facing challenges with.

Dave Campanella: So it’s real important to take a step back at what you’re doing, to breathe, and to try to seek out credible fact-based resources when you’re questioning something about grooming. We need to put aside our assumptions. For some of us, we may have been brought up in the AKC world of dogs and worked at, I don’t know, let’s just say a kennel, and you were taught this is the way you do things. And we never question why. We just do it that way because that’s what we were told. Yet, we’re facing challenges.

Dave Campanella: And what mindful practice simply does is get us to focus on the moment, to not be worried about what the customer is going to think, or am I combing this dog out the right way, or am I going to get in trouble with my boss … being motivated by fears that come up in your head. The important thing is to focus on the matter at hand, and more importantly, any time we can feed the creative process with vetted, credible curriculum, factual based information, that is going to make all the difference, because mindful practice, and that is, again, like Steven McKenzie says, being in the now, focusing on what is, mindful practice and science actually work together hand in hand.

Dave Campanella: And there is a little bit of science, believe it or not.

Joe Zuccarello: I can believe it.

Dave Campanella: It can be something as simple as just understanding the structure of the hair or the different coat types we deal with and basic skin information onto …

Joe Zuccarello: I’m glad you’re saying that, Dave, because I just want to let the Hey, Joe podcast subscribers and listeners out there know that there are … Dave has also been a guest on Hey, Joe on this other topic of talking about how … believe it or not, there is a science behind how a hair shaft can be treated and conditioned and cleansed in a way that actually helps groomers do their job better and easier.

Joe Zuccarello: So I would encourage all of our listeners, if you haven’t heard that other episode, the episode of creating masterpieces from nightmares in record time. So if you get a moment, of course, after you listen to this episode, go ahead and check out that episode as well. So you can search for that in the Hey, Joe library.

Joe Zuccarello: So Dave, let me ask you a question. When you say mindful, so I think of mindful, and I’m thinking, okay, what does that mean? So even when I read your information, like okay, Dave, where are you going with mindful? Is it synonymous with and maybe a little bit more pedestrian term of responsible through research, responsible … just operating responsibly? And to me, when I think of responsibly, I think of just what you said. I think about listen, do your research and be open to ideas. And I remember, here’s something I remember. I remember watching The Jetsons when I was a kid. And that might date me, but that’s okay.

Joe Zuccarello: But I remember watching George Jetson talking to his boss at work, and they were doing it on a television screen, on a video screen. And I remember back then, thinking wow, wouldn’t it be cool if that ever happened. I don’t know. Maybe the creator of The Jetsons, at one point, maybe that person was a genius, and they set in motion Facetime and web conferencing and stuff. But I use web video conferencing every day, whether it’s on my phone or computer or what. My point in that is had I been close-minded to that or had society been close-minded to that, would we even have technology? Would we even have some of the advancements that we have?

Joe Zuccarello: What does that mean in grooming? Is mindful synonymous with responsible, Dave?

Dave Campanella: I think it’s … yes. But I think more fundamentally, what it is is let’s first acknowledge that in the business of grooming dogs, there is a process. And it’s a logical process, and there are going to be proven methods that are substantiated that can work best throughout the process. And I tend to, when I looked at the grooming as a process, mindfully when my wife Tracy and I ran our business, I broke it down into five pillars. And the first pillar is a basic understanding of coat and skin physiology.

Dave Campanella: One example would be somewhere along the line as you learn about canine skin and hair, you’ll hear that the skin and the hair are anionic substrates. And what that means is our body … the dog’s skin and hair carry a negative charge. And what does that mean? Well, as you progress through the pillars, the second pillar that I talk about is an understanding of shampoos and grooming liquids. A lot of the liquids that we use to clean can be anionic, can be cationic. Cationic is positively charged.

Dave Campanella: And these things are the chemistry and the basic elements of how things work. And you don’t have to have a PhD to understand this. A simple example would be, as most of you have learned, that conditioners that we use can really make a difference in releasing the hair or taking a dry coat or dry skin and remoisturizing it. And that’s because conditioners are cationic. They’re positive, and they bond to the negatively charged skin and hair. Oh my gosh.

Dave Campanella: Everyone of us has said when we were sitting in algebra class, when am I ever going to use this stuff about positive and negatives? Well, this is a classic example of some basic understanding. And I like to … and in breaking down what I feel are the pillars, the five pillars, I talk about hair physiology and skin, understanding the grooming liquid, shampoos, conditioners, sprays that we use. Mastering your tools and equipment would be the third. Honing and then working and improving on your methods and techniques, the scissoring, the different skills that we have in finishing the dogs.

Dave Campanella: And then the fifth pillar is health and safety because in everything we do, especially in a business when we’re dealing with client animals and with other coworkers and taking care of our own bodies, health and safety is very important. Those are the mindful five pillars I like to break down the process. And in doing so, it makes it easier to dissect this crazy thing called the grooming process and understand it.

Joe Zuccarello: Okay, so Dave, I’m just so excited about … sorry for stepping on you there. I’m just excited about the way that you’re pointing it out and the way that you’re defining it. Because as I look at it, and again, we kind of go back to that no, guys, I just come in, and I groom dogs every day. You do, but do you know what you’re doing? Do you know down to the science? Do you know why that product does what it does? And at the end of the day, the product’s just got to work, right? But isn’t it a cool way of finding out, well, how does that product work, and why would I choose one product over another? You at least, I think, by knowing these, at least a couple of the elements in here, especially knowing your liquid products for grooming, when you’re selecting grooming products, it may not just be about the one that smells the best. You remove trial and error when you lean heavily on product manufacturers or other providers to the well-being of your business. You lean on them for the education and experience.

Joe Zuccarello: Because you don’t have it. And that’s okay, because you don’t need to have it. You just need to know where to find that experience. And Dave, you pointed out earlier, a vetted curriculum. So how do I learn grooming? It’s interesting because at Paragon, we’ve developed the web-based distance learning program, and it’s all based … it’s so great to hear you talk about these five pillars, because a grooming curriculum can no longer be taught to each other by each other, because we’re facing legislation. I have other Hey, Joe podcasts talking with subject matter experts on probably the reality of legislation and regulation in the grooming business. So to your point, if you use a certain structure based mentality, then you will start appreciating standards, grooming standards, or structure, or how about accountability? Yeah, you might be held accountable. It’s not just because a dog looks beautiful after one groom.

Joe Zuccarello: It’s are you doing something for that pet and for you? And for the pet parent and for anyone who might work in your salon as co-workers, are you doing something that enhances their ability to keep doing this longer? And I think something I really like about these five pillars is because if you can take a step back, you can look at these, you really start to have a better perspective, and I think that’s what we’re asking the Hey, Joe listeners. Dave, I think that’s what you’re challenging them to do. I use the word a lot of challenging people to think of things differently. And again, don’t write stories in your head. Don’t make the assumptions. And sometimes, you can’t trust everything you hear. And I think you kind of hit on that earlier about social media.

Joe Zuccarello: Because we’re a point and click society. We want immediate gratification. And sometimes that gratification comes by way of the person who’s either the loudest or the most frequently heard, or the very first answer we get in a forum. And Dave, you’re saying that that’s not always correct.

Dave Campanella: That’s absolutely true. I mean, we’re programmed as human beings to believe the first thing we’re told, which as you learn in life, as you progress, that’s typically not the case, which is why a lot of people are skeptical. What I’m basically trying … the concept that I like to profess in terms of grooming is what I call … and it’s a little phrase I’ve learned called progressive grooming logic. And these five pillars we spoke about, physiology, liquids, tools and equipment, methods, techniques, health and safety, they build on each other clockwise. And the decisions that we make have consequences on other decisions.

Dave Campanella: For example, if you’re not mindful of the condition of the hair, you may choose a product that blows the coat open and lifts those cuticles wide open, and you’re trying to de-shed a dog, let’s just say. And you’re wondering why it’s fighting you like Velcro, and you can’t release this hair just because you made a selection that wasn’t informed and more mindfully based on the matter at hand, the condition of the coat, you know? And lacking the basic, necessary curriculum or knowledge that’s out there.

Dave Campanella: And then if you’re a bather out there, working in the shop, and you’re getting gripes from the finishers up front about how the dogs are still wet, or that the coat is too staticky, these are examples of how the pillars, what we do throughout the process build upon each other. So the trick, it stands to reason, if you make more of the right selections, that whole process flows together much easier. And you can see, feel, and it’s definitely a less stressful environment that you’re creating.

Dave Campanella: I like to tell folks that with mindful practice, what you’re doing is you’re letting the creative flow of fact-based consciousness blossom. And what do I mean by that? Mindfulness is what we’re really talking about, deliberate conscious decision in the workplace, and as opposed to mindless, clueless, almost working like a robot with no thought.

Dave Campanella: And we’re not talking about a highly restrictive work structure or workflow. No, no, not at all. But by understanding the pillars and how the process flows, that actually creates more opportunity for fresh innovations and new ideas to merge. That’s the neat thing about grooming. There’s no right or wrong way of how to run a grooming business. But there are some right and wrong ways throughout the process that we need to be aware of if that makes sense.

Joe Zuccarello: Right. It makes total sense. So what you’re saying is that … well, and really, in a day where the internet and social media and such can be, I guess, misleading or not necessarily always accurate, the best part of it is that there is a lot of accuracy out there. Never before have we had this level of availability of information and direct access to these resources. I mean, take this podcast, for example. The Hey, Joe podcast, if we can save some of our grooming artists out there, some of our colleagues in this industry, if we can save you time by bringing you information, and here’s what I ask you to do. Don’t just take our word for it. Vet us. Go out and see what we stand for. Go out and make sure we’re telling you the truth. Don’t let us be your first answer and presumably the right answer.

Joe Zuccarello: Now, I’d say Dave and I are a little bit biased in that regard. But we’ve done a lot of the homework, homework that really, you don’t need to because we did, and we continue to do. And our information flow that is served up to us every day whether it’s Dave or I or maybe you’re in your vehicle heading to the salon today, and you’re listening to us on your earbuds, the information is only going to become more and more bountiful, but not necessarily more and more accurate.

Joe Zuccarello: I don’t believe the two run hand in hand. Other my point, Dave, you talk about the uphill struggle of trial and error. When I hear uphill struggle, you know what I think of? I think of cost. When we think of costs, maybe we think of money. If we focus on just trial and error, which traditionally in our industry, that’s a lot of what happens. Would you agree?

Dave Campanella: Oh, absolutely. We waste a lot of time. And the whole point is to just … what we’re working towards is being more efficient and less surprises, more routine, fact-based things. If we don’t know what we’re doing, we’re always going to be at a loss. And I always put things this way, too. You could have the best grooming shampoo or the best clippers or the most expensive pair of scissors. But they mean absolutely nothing if you don’t know how to use them or you don’t have the basic education to back it up.

Dave Campanella: I’ll give you an example of a couple things that points to this effect. A lot of us will … we have a product that we go to that we become intimate with that we’ll go to with our biggest grooming challenges. Mrs. Jones brings in her matted Yorkie, and we grab this product that sits on the shelf waiting for those difficult situations. And we’ll use it just for that. And I tell folks, if these products, if that product is so good at de-tangling or de-shedding for example, why would we use a lesser product on our routine maintenance clients?

Dave Campanella: It would stand other reason that they would benefit from using better products and better methods when every dog comes in because let’s be honest, every animal that comes into the greater or lesser extend is shedding or has some mats and some tangles, and every one of them needs to be dried. So if someone came in, and wanted to have you de-shed their dog, and I’ll give you an example of a mindful method. And you offer them, well, I use this special product, and for just $15 more, I can de-shed your dog, and the customer’s thinking 15 bucks? No. I don’t want to do that. Does that mean we’re going to lose a lesser product on the dog that’s matted? Absolutely not. Why would we make it more difficult for ourselves.

Dave Campanella: And what’ll come up is people will say it’s too expensive to use these expensive equipment or this more expensive shampoo. And I don’t see that as being very mindful. If one takes a step back, most shampoos for example, cost between 25 and $50, which is pretty reasonable. And if you did the math, most people believe that a gallon of shampoo can do anywhere from 60 to over 100 washes per gallon, which my point is it breaks down to less than 50 cents, maybe 40 cents per dog to use these better products.

Dave Campanella: Now, if that means you can do four or five … let’s just say four more dogs a day.

Joe Zuccarello: What a great return on your investment, right? Where do I sign up?

Dave Campanella: Yeah. If you’re charging 40 to $50, and you could make an extra 160 to $200 a day, if you’re having a problem with 45 cents, then raise your price another dollar. It makes no sense. We’re not very mindful in how we apply that. And another example that I’ll tell folks, as you alluded to earlier, is the groomer and health and safety risks that we face. Shedding is the number one reason why people come to groomers in general for help.

Dave Campanella: But if you’re spending countless hours of prep time drying, de-matting, de-shedding with a process that isn’t working, you increase the possibility of injury. If you’re pre-brushing a dog that’s matted and tangled, that dog might not like that. It might feel uncomfortable, all that pulling and tugging. You’re more apt, more likely to get bit. Or the dog, we forget about the dog. It’s more apt or likely to stress out.

Dave Campanella: But if you have the proper method through education and a better selection of products to fit your process, you may be able to work so much easier with less stress on you, less stress on dog, and we always hear trainers the dog understands, can read your vibe. If you’re stressed out, it doesn’t help. I mean, it all flows together and builds on each other.

Dave Campanella: And I tell people, in the grooming industry, and Joe, you can attest to this, it’s not a matter of if you’re going to get injured. It’s just a matter of how bad, how often, and how severe. And the trick is to minimize these occurrences. And we can do that in the products and methods we choose.

Joe Zuccarello: And one of the … I think one of the things we overlook in our business quite often is … and really, even during this podcast, we’re talking a lot about … and we should. We’re talking a lot about groomer safety, groomer processes, groomer education, grooming products, grooming procedures and processes and so on and so on. And we start touching on, as you mentioned earlier, let’s not forget about the dog, right?

Joe Zuccarello: So the dog or cat in some cases, what is their feeling? What are they going through? What’s their experience? And really, the part I think we forget about quite often is the pet parent themselves, because if we’re not achieving a balance through the entire grooming process, and if we’re not mindful, and we’re not paying attention to what, Dave, you’re pointing out as these five pillars, I imagine you stand a chance to not deliver on a quality promise.

Dave Campanella: Oh, you’re absolutely right, Joe. It’s all related to each other. One thing leads to another.

Joe Zuccarello: And then, let’s tie back in our friend the internet and social media. It is really easy for people to get keyboard courage. And keyboard courage means it’s a whole lot easier through anonymity to complain or to share your disheartenment or disappointment with complete strangers. And in today’s day and age, look at the star ratings on Amazon, for example, or any other eCommerce shopping platform. The star rating is so important. People … it is a fact, going back to your facts-based resources. It is a fact that people are more inclined to trust the opinions and reviews and recommendations of complete strangers, versus any amount of work, any amount of promotion or sales or marketing that any company can do on their own.

Joe Zuccarello: That is powerful. So if we forget to include the customer and their satisfaction into this equation, then we are certainly risking the mindfulness and the balance in our equation. So I’ve always been a big fan of what’s called the [CEX 00:34:24] factor. CEX is customer experience. You can have good customer service all day long, but you might be just as helpful as your local convenience store. But it’s the experience that sets you apart from other service providers, especially when it comes to something so near and dear to our heart, which is our little fuzzy creatures we call family members, our pets.

Joe Zuccarello: Our industry is not a high tech industry, but it certainly is a high touch industry. That means there’s a lot of decisions based upon emotion that are made based on emotion. So that’s why I really appreciate, Dave, your perspective of looking at the five pillars coupled with vetted curriculum so that when you are learning something new, and let’s face it, Dave, you’ve taught me things on this podcast. I’m a forever student, and I surrender to being that for the rest of my life because I think it just fulfills me more and allows me to carry that information forward and pay it forward to all of our listeners.

Joe Zuccarello: But when you’re focusing on these five pillars and a vetted curriculum, that provides that balance, or I’ll substitute a word in there that I like to use a lot is harmony. And that’s when you know your culture and your business … and I am going to have podcasts coming up in the future talking about creating a culture and team building and a harmonious operation in your business. And Dave, your contribution to that culture definition for these five pillars, you won’t be hearing the last of me. I think this is something I want to be paying attention to and coming back and inviting you back to the table to see how that influences culture.

Joe Zuccarello: So we are just about out of time for today’s episode, Dave. But I do have one more question for you. And that is if you could offer our listeners, the Hey, Joe podcast listeners, if you could offer them something that they could go back and do today, or maybe again, they’re listening to this podcast on the way into the salon, what would that one thing be? Okay, five pillars, oh my gosh, I’ve got Dave and Joe, I have like 40 dogs coming in today. I don’t need five more things just to concentrate on. But where do they start?

Dave Campanella: The first thing that they need to start with is just to remember what’s the end result. A customer’s coming in. You want to meet their expectations. You want to listen to the customer. And then you want to follow throughout your process in the most effective way, a smooth way of delivering that to the customer. We’ve all worked in a chaotic environment, and all you have to do is look at the holiday season when it’s crazy. Customers can pick up on chaos. If we just slow down, you’re going to get everything done today, but just try to be more conscious and make the best decisions per dog. Each dog, each case is unique and individual. And just deliver the best you can based on that.

Dave Campanella: I know that’s a little vague, but we forget to look at the big picture of what it is we’re doing.

Joe Zuccarello: So I’ll wrap a really big bow on that, Dave, and even take that one step further. I would then encourage all of our Hey, Joe listeners to go to paragonpetschool.com, and Dave’s education piece will be made available to you free. That is … you could offer free products. You could offer a lot of different things. But when you’re offering free education by way of making these pillars available to them, I think that’s really special. You also have some opportunity to try some products, too, don’t you?

Dave Campanella: Yeah, if one goes to bestshotpet.com, and looks under our various products, I always suggest first comers to the site to check out our Best Shot free stuff. If you pull that up on the screen, you’ll see that we offer some great introductory trial offers with free shipping that I talk about in our articles and some of the concepts we talked about to the test for less than 25 bucks, and we’ll ship it to you for free. And then I also invite folks to explore our website. There’s a lot of great information where you can learn about where we stand on ingredients among other things. So we try to make it a good resource for the viewer.

Joe Zuccarello: I don’t know that you can get any easier than that. So you’re a point and click away from both the information on paragonpetschool.com, and of course, on the Best Shot website. We’ll have all of that contact information available so that it makes it as easy for you as possible. So wrapping up, Dave, thanks again, man. I mean, this has been just a really great afternoon spending time with you. I hope our listers feel the same. I know that the information you gave them will be extremely helpful, extremely valuable.

Joe Zuccarello: Just a reminder, Hey, Joe listeners, thank you to you. Thank you also to our questions. Our podcast survives, our podcast actually thrives by receiving your questions. So send in your questions to our email address, which is heyjoequestions@paragonpetschool.com. And you might just hear your topic discussed with an industry expert on an upcoming episode of Hey, Joe. Dave, thanks again. I really do appreciate it. I wish and your business the very best.

Dave Campanella: Thank you. Likewise, my friend.

Joe Zuccarello: All right, take care.